The Complete Angler Podcast: Episode 15 – Derek Kroeker and Manitoba’s Recreational Angling Strategy

Welcome to the Complete Angler, your source of information on the outdoor industry in Central Canada.
With over 35 years in the field, host Don Lamont covers topics and issues with industry leaders and influencers to bring you up to speed on what’s happening in the outdoor world.
And now, here is your host, Don Lamont.
Our guest today is a fisheries manager with Manitoba’s Department of Agriculture and Resource Development.
Derek Croker received his technical training at Lethbridge College and completed both his bachelor and master’s degrees at the University of Manitoba.
Derek manages fisheries in the eastern region of Manitoba, as well as collaborating with other branch staff on province-wide initiatives.
In his spare time, Derek can be found searching out the next hot bite on many of Manitoba’s incredible fisheries.
Derek, welcome to the Complete Angler podcast.
Thank you. It’s great to be here.
We’ve met many years ago.
We were doing a little seminar for the kids at Centennial School in Lactavani.
And you, I think, had just become on as a regional fisheries biologist in the eastern region. Is that correct?
Yeah, that’s right. Actually, it was the regional fisheries manager.
Doug LaRue had just retired, and they had asked me to fill his big shoes, you might say, as I got here.
And, yeah, we met soon after that on the dock here at the office in Lactavani.
And things have gone really well since then, I’d say.
Hey, Don.
They really have.
And a lot of changes in this province to the way the fishery is being managed.
We’ve got new funds.
We’ve got new initiatives.
The one I want to talk about specifically today, Derek, is the one you’re involved in, was the Manitoba Recreational Angling Strategy.
Tell us about how you arrived at this document.
Yeah, well, that’s a great question.
So, you know, us as fisheries managers and biologists, we are listening constantly to anglers, listening to other industry players.
And we hear from them, you know, from years and years about different ideas and different ways we can be doing things.
And so we’re constantly listening to our clients, essentially.
And what you have seen in this Angling package that the proposed changes, essentially, is the accumulation of years and years’ worth of people’s recommendations to us.
So it’s taken, you know, likely over five years for us to sort of compile all the ideas into a package that would make sense.
And, of course, as you see in the package, there’s some give and take.
And it’s all about balance, right?
One of the things we’ve heard loud and clear from our anglers is they wanted us to increase the opportunities.
They recognized that we have so many different varieties of fish to fish for.
And they wanted to have the opportunity to fish for them at different times of year.
But that needed to be balanced with the protection of fish stocks.
So it took a bit of time to find what we were hoping for is sort of the right balance between the opportunity and the protection of the fish stock.
And the proposal that went out last week is the culmination of years’ worth of work towards that very idea.
So if people want to see this report, how do they find it?
Yeah, they can go to Engage MB on that website.
And there is a three-minute video, which gives a very high-level summary.
And then there’s the actual 10-page document itself.
And on that website, we certainly encourage people to speak their minds.
Like, there’s a lot in there.
There’s a lot of different kinds of changes.
And we want to hear what people have to say.
The proposed changes that we’ve presented cannot be implemented for at least two years.
We’re proposing the changes to come in in 2023.
So there’s really almost two years of time to modify these changes.
So we’re looking forward to the feedback on what people have to say.
Hopefully people are excited.
This is kind of the largest change, at least at once, of fisheries regulations that I’ve seen in my time in government and probably much longer than that.
And I think, Don, you probably can comment about just the nature of these changes compared to what’s happened in the past.
Well, Derek, for me, it’s very exciting.
And as one of the people that represents stakeholder groups, it’s very exciting.
But why now, Derek?
Why now?
Yeah, again, this has been building for some time.
So it’s not that necessarily there was this immediate need, I guess you could say, for it.
But it had come to a point where we were ready to present to the public.
Now, mind you, obviously with change in government, sometimes there’s more of an emphasis on providing some opportunity for change.
I’m not saying that’s exactly how it was, but obviously a change in government can change some staff as well.
And so, you know, there was maybe some of that as an influence.
But I think also a little bit the added pressure to the fisheries, which has happened since COVID.
We know that people have actually taken to fishing in droves in Manitoba, which I’m so happy for.
The fact that our fishery was able to remain open and people really took advantage of this wholesome activity that we have of fishing, both, you know, to have some fresh fish to eat, but also just the sheer enjoyment of being out in nature and reconnecting.
So, you know, part of what we saw was a dramatic increase in that, which is great.
But as a manager, I have this really interesting job of promoting that opportunity in fisheries, but also making sure we protect the fish stocks, right?
I have that balance.
And what you see here is definitely a nod to the fact that we saw an increase in pressure on our fish stocks.
And so, it’s not necessarily that this needs to come in because of COVID.
However, I think the timing is pretty appropriate that we are presenting this at a time when we have more people fishing than we normally have had.
So, I’m not saying COVID had the final straw, but it was pretty timely that it happened right now.
Yeah, it kind of pushed it over the brink to get starting to get some things done.
But the thing that, one of the things I really am impressed about the package is science-based management.
And this current government has put their money where their mouth is and finally listened to fisheries managers and allocated funds to just do that.
Talk about that, Derek.
Yeah, it’s really exciting.
You know, government has earmarked a significant amount of funds for us this year to essentially use to monitor our fish stocks.
It is earmarked towards gathering more data.
And that’s, as biologists and managers, we need data to work with, right?
And so, when the new funding was announced earlier this year, we were very excited that we’d be able to go back to some of these lakes and rivers,
which we haven’t maybe visited as often as we’d have liked in terms of our sampling programs.
And we’ll be able to go more often and actually get more up-to-date data, which then just cycles back into our management process and the regulation-making process.
You know, a lot of people say you can’t manage without data, and it’s true.
So, having this reinvestment by this government into our group is very exciting.
We’re extremely grateful, and we want to make the most of it for sure.
Yeah, it really bodes well.
And a lot of people might not understand that for a long time, this department was bare bones.
You know, they lost a number of the regional biologist positions.
But now that’s all turned around, is it not?
Well, definitely, yeah.
We’ve had some new hires recently, which is very exciting.
I mean, the past is the past.
It’s something, you know, a lot of us can’t control.
But we understand, obviously, that, you know, every organization goes through lean time, so we’re not complaining by any stretch of the imagination.
But we are super grateful when we do, are acknowledged by, obviously, you know, by our superiors.
And, of course, the user groups had a lot to do with this.
If it wasn’t for the user groups really encouraging government to reinvest in fisheries, this probably wouldn’t have happened.
So organizations like yourself and Manitoba Wildlife Federation, Manitoba Lodges and Outfitters Association, without sort of the communication from your groups to government, I’m not sure if this would have happened.
So, again, we’re very grateful for all the user groups and all the industry leaders that have really brought, I think, the fishing and fisheries management into the spotlight.
And, you know, again, we’re just very grateful for all of our community partners that have helped along in this.
Well, I think all sectors of society and government have recognized how valuable the fishery is to our province.
And, you know, when we put some economic numbers on it, everybody was totally astounded.
And as you mentioned in your strategy, Manitoba is one of the few provinces in North America that continues to grow their angling license sales and their angler base.
Yeah, that’s really exciting.
When I saw the latest numbers come in, I was so excited to see that we continually to have an increased number of people participating in this industry.
And so we know, you know, with the $600 million that it brings to our economy every year, $600 million is quite a considerable economy.
And we’re attracting new people all the time.
And especially new Canadians that are coming here are taking to fishing, which is fantastic.
It’s a great way for people to come and experience the sort of the Manitoba culture of how we use the outdoors and how we use our fisheries.
So exciting to see those people, exciting to see so many seniors continuing to fish, you know, where in a lot of other jurisdictions, it can maybe be difficult for having seniors go out.
But we have places that are relatively easy to access for people to fish, whether it’s close to Winnipeg or other major centers.
Manitoba is just blessed with so many good water bodies, with so many good fisheries.
And I don’t want to take credit for that for in terms of us as necessary managers having created those great fisheries.
A lot of it has to do with people already taking, you know, a lot of self-responsibility to release a lot of fish.
The latest numbers are that of all the fish caught in Manitoba, 84% of them are released and only 16% are retained.
That’s such a huge difference as it was from 20 years ago, where roughly half the fish were retained and half were released.
We now have, you know, most of our fish being released, which is such a great opportunity for, you know, catch and release and having those fish caught again and again.
So, yeah, we’re just thrilled that people are continuing to fish.
We’re thrilled to manage it.
We’re going to be able to do even more now with the investments coming our way in terms of, you know, just fine-tuning the management on our important fisheries.
One of the key points that you talk about in the strategy is the protection of trophy fish.
How do you plan on doing that, Derek?
Yeah, well, it’s going to be exciting.
So, we have seven species in the strategy, which will have a maximum size limit, which means that any fish over those sizes will need to be released.
And as far as I know, that’s not really been done in most other jurisdictions.
They may have one or two species, but we’ve got seven of our major species now, which will be protected at that trophy size, at that large size.
And it does two things, and this is what’s so exciting, is that we now know that those larger fish are actually quite important for spawning.
Most of those large fish are females, and they actually produce larger eggs with more lipid content or more nutritious egg, you might say.
And our folks at the hatchery have found that if they use a larger walleye, they actually have better hatch, and the fry tend to be in better condition.
So, by protecting those large fish and having people release them, we’re actually going to be increasing the reproductive potential for those fish, maintaining the genetics of large fish in the population.
So, we’re actually doing the population to benefit, but then there’s this whole other sidebar of essentially the trophy fishery and the tourism that comes with that.
Manitoba will be able to say, you have a fantastic chance of catching a fish of a lifetime because we don’t kill our largest fish in these seven species.
And so, I can only imagine that this is going to be something that, you know, guides and outfitters are going to be using as a promotional tool.
Travel Manitoba perhaps as well saying, come to Manitoba where your chances of catching a trophy fishery are going to be higher than almost anywhere else.
So, this is sort of a two-pronged, you know, benefit to Manitobans.
And I’m just looking forward to seeing how our industry responds to this and how they use it as a marketing tool, for sure.
Little sidebar story here.
I was watching the show with my friend Al Linder, and I was actually talking to him on an earlier podcast about his home lake
in Hayward, Wisconsin, was a smallmouth bass fishery.
And after the death of his brother, Ron, he went back there to fish the lake and recall some memories.
And he talked about how the lake now is managed.
Back in his day, they kept all the big smallmouth bass.
Now that fishery is managed as a trophy smallmouth fishery where you have to release all the big fish
and you can certainly keep some of the smaller fish.
And, you know, despite convention, I don’t want to get off topic here, but I also like the idea that we should promote
people keeping smaller smallmouth bass because some of the lakes get stunted because there’s too many smaller fish
and there’s no room for the big fish to grow.
But that’s another topic for another day.
But it’s great to see that you guys are proposing to protect our trophy fisheries.
But I just want to mention a couple other things.
You mentioned about the senior license.
Now the senior is 65 and over.
Just like Ontario, you only have to show your ID.
That’s it.
It’s the same as Ontario.
And you’ve extended the closed season for walleye fishing another week exactly on the same schedule as Ontario, right?
So this provides added protection, right, Derek?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The extra week for sure is going to add some protection to the walleye stocks.
But we did notice, of course, in years where spring was a little bit later,
walleye will spawn a little bit later than normal.
And places like the lower Red River, which we’ve recently found out actually has a much larger spawning population of walleye than we know.
And that’s thanks to Doug Watkinson and the folks at DFO who collaborated with us and many other researchers across Canada
to actually determine this mass spawning movement of walleye into the lower Red River.
And that will be closed for an extra week than it normally would be because in those later springs,
people were catching spawning walleye at that time.
And so these proposed changes will add that extra week of protection for that area.
And that’s going to support, again, that very important recreational fishery in the Red River and on Lake Winnipeg,
which, of course, so many people rely upon.
Probably the two biggest fisheries we have are the lower Red and Lake Winnipeg.
So it’s going to be just a long-term benefit to the walleye population of those two systems.
And I think we must explain to the listeners that in Manitoba, we have a lot of mixed-use fisheries use.
So explain about that.
For sure.
Yeah, especially some of our larger lakes.
I mean, obviously, we have subsistence harvest, we have recreational fishing, and we have commercial fishing on top of that.
So this can be quite a challenge, obviously, because there’s different management regimes and different regulations that actually apply to each of those three sectors.
But there’s no reason why these fisheries can’t be managed where all users can benefit, right?
And so, of course, when we protect spawning fish in particular, we know that’s going to help all three industries and all three groups of people that are using the fishery.
So we certainly respect and want to promote the continued subsistence use of our fisheries for food.
It’s very important food for a lot of people, and we want to protect that.
That’s actually very important for us.
We also want to protect the commercial fishery.
In some communities, the commercial fishery is extremely important, and we want to continue to support that.
And, of course, obviously, the reason we’re talking is we want to promote and grow our recreational angling industry as well.
So, again, a lot of the mixed-use fisheries have room for sharing these fish, and it’s exciting to go down this path where we can see all three groups benefit for some of the changes that we’re proposing in this regulation package.
So, now that this report is out to the public and quite a lot of the anglers in the province have seen it, what are some of the hot topics?
What are some of the concerns?
Yeah, no, there’s definitely concerns, and there should be, right?
I mean, that’s the one thing I really enjoy about talking to anglers is most of them are passionate.
Most anglers really have an opinion about what we’re doing.
It’d be terrible if they didn’t, but anglers do have an opinion.
And so some of the hot topics are the bait in terms of live bait.
So, in this proposal, we are proposing to ban the harvest and use of live bait fish and leeches.
And that is quite controversial because some people definitely like to use live bait fishes and leeches.
You know, currently in Manitoba, it’s prohibited to use them in the north, in our provincial parks, in some other areas.
So, it’s not that live bait are being used all across Manitoba.
I think the latest report from the federal fisheries survey in 2010 was about 15% of Manitobans use leeches and about 17% of Manitobans use live bait fish.
The rest don’t.
So, it’s controversial, but we do know the risks are so high of using live bait, and it’s because of the movement of water.
So, that’s the real difficult part is when people move water, unfortunately, there can be, you know, unintentional introductions of diseases or other things, invasive species, zebra mussels, so forth, so that we don’t really want.
So, that’s probably one of the hot topics is live bait.
Some of the other ones might be just people aren’t really comfortable with moving away from the general closure and going into a species-specific closure.
Some people feel that it will be very difficult to enforce that, which, again, it could be challenging.
But, you know, we did present this package to our conservation officer service several weeks ago before it was released to the public.
And, by and large, our conservation officers were in favor of it, and they felt that they could enforce this.
We have to, of course, realize that most jurisdictions across North America do have species-specific closures, not a general closure.
So, we’re not, by far, not the first jurisdiction to go to species-specific closures.
So, we’re confident that that can be accomplished as well.
And I think, again, as I mentioned before, it’s a bit of a balance act, right?
We understand we’re going to be opening up fishing for a lot of species year-round, and there might be some incidental walleye catches there.
But we believe that sort of with the reduction of the general limit from six to four, the protection of those trophy-sized walleye, the extending of the walleye season by the closure by one week, all those things will help to protect the walleye.
Plus, there’s a lot of education that needs to go with this, right?
This is a pretty big change for Manitoba.
So, we fully expect to do a lot of education to people and things that we’re doing right now.
Some of the other seminars that Fisheries Branch staff are putting on are meant to just help spread this message about how we’re trying to find this balance.
Well, in pastures, Derek, you might not be on this podcast.
The government wants to get the message out there.
One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about that is exciting for me as well, because it’s great to have all these regulations.
But if you don’t have anybody out there enforcing those regulations, you know, it gets tough to convince the angling public that things are as the way they should be.
Now, there’s been changes.
Now, I understand enforcement was moved into your department?
Well, I’m not sure if they were moved into us or we were moved into them.
Okay.
We are together.
Anyway, I think that’s what’s important is that we’re together.
And it’s really exciting to be now sort of under one management agency with our enforcement brothers and sisters, because obviously, you know, we work with them already.
They’re down the hall from us.
Sometimes we share a boat with them.
We meet them in passing at the office.
And we often ask them what’s happening on the landscape.
And they tell us what’s happening.
And they tell us where, you know, certain types of infractions or what’s happening in the fishery.
Having us together under one other one director is going to be fantastic.
It’s going to be we’re going to be able to help the officers find those very specific areas where we have enforcement concerns.
So it’s going to be the right type of enforcement at the right time at the right place.
And we’re really excited to be working more closely with them.
I can’t comment necessarily in terms of how their job is going to be different than it was in the past.
But it sounds like they’re going to be more focused on the wildlife and fisheries ends of things where in the past conservation officers were had a really wide scope of job.
And so it sounds like there’s going to be a bit more emphasis on the enforcement of fisheries and wildlife infractions, which is going to be fantastic.
Right.
I think that’s exactly what anglers and hunters want in this province.
They want to see the officers in the field.
And, yeah, I think all signs are pointing towards just an enhanced relationship with us and I think an increased presence in the landscape.
Another thing that’s really exciting for me, Derek, is that a lot of people in your department really care about the outdoors, both fishing and hunting and the resource.
You know, you’re a hardcore angler, very knowledgeable, have had an opportunity to fish with you and your son.
So, it’s pretty exciting because you’re out in the landscape, you know, you’re living it as well.
So, that’s important stuff, is it not?
I think so.
I mean, I really enjoy my time fishing with my family and friends.
Of course, we’re missing it a bit now during COVID.
But, to me, it’s just such a great opportunity for me in my position to connect with the people who are actually using this resource.
And I get to ask them questions while they’re fishing.
You know, why are you fishing for this species here?
What are you targeting today?
How did you end up here?
And I hear people’s stories about, you know, how they’ve learned about a certain fishery, what their perceptions are about harvesting or not harvesting, how they used to use bait or now not use bait.
I mean, there’s so many ways that I learn while I’m on the landscape.
And I’m always humbled by the people I talk to about their immense knowledge.
We glean so much of that as fisheries biologists and managers.
Like, we’re not the owners of knowledge.
You know, we obviously have our school knowledge, but we need that interaction with the anglers.
And so, myself and a lot of my colleagues are, yeah, we like to go fishing because that’s where we get to meet the people who are doing the very thing that we’re trying to manage.
And it’s so important.
I find that every time I go out and talk to people in the landscape, I’m learning something new.
And it just makes me a better manager and a better biologist.
One thing I would be remiss not to mention is, too, that was really exciting news for me as well is a new restocking truck.
$250,000 to that.
That’s huge.
It is huge.
The stocking truck, of course, our hatchery in the White Shell is down, you know, right in the southeast corner near West Hawk Lake and Caddy Lake.
It’s at the very corner of the province.
And, of course, a lot of our trout move all over the province into the prairie parkland in the western part of the province.
And the old truck we had had, I don’t know how many kilometers on it, but it was showing its age.
And we actually had a few breakdowns in the last few years.
And the truck was relatively small also.
So we had to make a lot of trips.
The new truck, we are just so, so grateful for the investment in that truck.
It is considerably larger.
It can take much more fish.
It’s going to have upgraded uses of, you know, the oxygen storage and oxygen distribution throughout the tanks in the truck.
It’s going to be much more comfortable for the person driving it.
I’ve gone along with the hatchery staff as we’re stocking.
The old truck was pretty bumpy and hard on the back.
The new truck is more comfortable.
It’s newer.
It’s going to be more reliable.
And it’s going to just mean healthier trout.
When stocking truck gets all the way to the northwest corner, those trout will be in fantastic shape.
And it’s just one more investment that this government has made in terms of, you know,
ensuring that the work that’s already being done is going to continue and that good work that the hatchery folks do,
that those fish are going to arrive in the very best shape possible wherever they’re being transported to.
And with those applications through the Fisheries and Wildlife Enhancement Fund,
they’ll be able to use that truck to stock in some of the various lakes in the province.
You know, it’s a very exciting time for me in this province with all the progress I’ve seen over the last four or five years.
To what we’re trying to do to not only improve the fishery, but protect it.
So keep up the great work, Derek.
When we go forward, what are, with the angling public, what should they be aware of?
Like how we mentioned that you can go to Engage Manitoba CA.
Is that the website too?
Yeah, it’s just called Engage MB.
And I think if you type that in, that it’ll bring you to a page where, you know,
this current government is really actually very interested in hearing Manitobans’ opinions.
So if you go on that site, you’ll see several different projects and proposals
coming from different departments on that, you know, about transportation and healthcare and education.
This government really wants to hear from Manitobans.
And I can attest that some of the comments that come through do reach to the very highest levels
and people are listening, and myself included.
We’re watching and listening to what people are saying.
On that website, there’s several different ways to respond.
There is an actual poll that sort of gauges your overall acceptance of the proposal.
There’s an opportunity for a quick comment that you could post publicly.
And of course, then there is also a button where you can actually click to submit your responses,
which I think is really valuable.
So if people are truly passionate about fishing and they really want to comment out of a specific
portion of it, they have the opportunity to submit essentially an email or a letter that
comes to us as fisheries branch that we get to see people’s ideas.
And I fully expect to see, you know, even unique ideas saying, hey, had you considered,
you know, I don’t know, doing this with this species, or had you considered closing this
area?
We’re expecting to see that because, again, anglers are passionate.
That’s one thing you can always count on.
When I meet someone who’s passionate about angling, they have ideas.
And I love hearing about them.
Sometimes they’re not always, you know, friendly to government, but that’s okay.
I understand that.
And I just take that as strict passion.
And I accept that fully.
So, yeah, I encourage people to go to Engage MB.
If you’re not comfortable that way, you know, we have regional fishery staff in the different
parts of the province.
We have them in Black Bonney and, of course, in Brandon and Dauphin, Swan River, Thompson.
We have fishery staff in Gimli as well.
And, of course, in Soto Crescent in Winnipeg.
Reach out to your regional staff.
We’re here in the offices.
We want to talk to you.
We want to listen.
So, if you already have a contact, certainly go that way.
Even our districts, which have conservation officers, they’re going to be ready to talk
about this package, too.
So, we have people who are ready to talk about it and listen.
And I encourage people to contact me directly if they’d like to and just talk about, you
know, some of the other rationale behind the changes.
Well, Derek, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Keep up the great work.
And I’m sure we’re going to hear a lot more about what the final changes will be.
And it’s an exciting time for the anglers and everybody who cares about the fisheries
resource in Manitoba.
Thanks so much, Derek.
Yeah.
Thanks, Don, very much for this opportunity.
It’s great to be able to do a podcast with you.
And I look forward to working with you closely again.
And we better get on the water when we can pretty soon.
Absolutely.
Okay.
Thanks, my friend.
Thanks for tuning in.
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